Archive for June 10, 2011

My response to the thread A suggestion about Animal Abuse and Bestiality in the Fetlife Suggestion Box:

Bestiality is not a damn kink. It’s not a form of BDSM – any more than having sex with a child is. Period. An animal can no more give consent than a child can. Any bottom feeding piece of garbage that tries to fly under the “my kink is not your kink” flag for this issue needs to be prosecuted.

Very well said, @LuciferCat.  And then they ought to be strung up from the nearest tree or at least spend the rest of their lives behind bars where they can’t hurt anyone else, or any other helpless creatures.

Just because someone out there does something and gets off on it does not mean that the activity in question is a legitimate kink.

It is also very well documented that people who abuse animals often tend to go on to abuse people.  It turns out that this link is particularly strong when the animal abuse includes sexual abuse.

While the risk to the animal is most obvious with human males penetrating the animals, the risk from animals being sexual with women is also substantial, although for less obvious reasons.  Anyone who thinks that women having sex with animals is benign also needs to seriously rethink this.  It is clear that at least with dogs, an assortment of negative effects happen to the animals with this as well.

I’m also learning that people use all sorts of tactics to draw attention away from their disgusting habits of having sex with animals.  One of the recent ones I’ve heard is that a written fantasy involving sex with an animal is not the same thing as actual bestiality.  Very true – but when a person also writes that they are “into animals” in a group dedicated to discussing extreme and disgusting sexual preferences, particularly in the same sentence as a list of other sexual behaviors they documentably actually engage in, it is clearly flat out bullshit.  If it were a question of fantasy, or only a thought vs an actual practice, people will state that specifically, or that they are “curious about” it, particularly when they are clearly educated and articulate.

I’ve also seen people who have made such statements then show an interest in animal role play, possibly to distract attention from the issue at hand.  Nice try – but people who are into animal role play do not say that they are “into animals”.  They say they are into “puppy play”, or “human ponies”, or “animal role play” or the like.  The distinctions are obvious and unmistakable.

I’ve also seen people play other semantic games and claim that despite saying that they are “into animals” in a sexual context, that does not mean they are bestialists.  Sorry, but that also doesn’t hold water.  By definition, bestiality involves having sex with animals, or “being into” animals in a sexual manner.

With respect to the argument that eating meat or wearing fur or leather is the same thing as fucking animals, that also does not hold water.  Animals have been part of the human food chain since the beginning of time, and have always provided clothing for people.  That is part of the natural order of things.  If people choose not to eat meat or wear leather, that is their choice – but the evidence is also mounting that those who do not eat meat often end up malnourished because they tend to have difficulty getting enough protein in their diets.  Humans are omnivores.  We need animal protein in our diets.

There are also many, many uses for other parts of cows and other animals that are slaughtered for human food.  A recent article I read listed something like 30 different products that come from them.  I can’t find it at the moment, but will post it when I do, but a few can be found here in the meantime.  There are many, many more, and the products that result are so ubiquitous in our world that it is virtually impossible to avoid them.

Fucking animals – or having them fuck you or otherwise stimulate you sexually – is not the same thing at all.  If we were meant to do so, we would have body parts that match more closely, and we would be able to reproduce with them.  Neither is the case.

Man is the only animal that engages in sexual behavior because it feels good.  The rest do it solely out of instinct, as demonstrations of dominance and pack leadership, and for procreation.  Engaging in these behaviors for one’s own personal sexual gratification takes nonconsensual advantage of the animal and the person’s position of authority over the animal.  It is indeed nonconsensual and exploitative because animals are not capable of meaningful or informed consent – and even if the animal appears to be enjoying it, the animal’s mindset about what is happening is quite different from that of the person.

I don’t think people should tell anyone that their fantasies are wrong, sick or twisted.

There’s nothing wrong with fantasies, @JohnBaku (although I would argue that some indicate very deep mental disturbances, but that is beyond the scope of this post).  No one gets hurt when people fantasize.

What’s wrong is actually playing them out with creatures who are not capable of consent.  The moment people start talking about actually executing those fantasies, or discussing actually having acted on them, that is a whole different kettle of fish.  That’s when people (or animals) actually do get hurt.  And that is not OK in this universe or any other.

Especially people from this community… you know how it feels to be judged and fuck does it not feel good… so why judge others and make them feel like shit.

I’m so tired of this argument as a justification for every kind of sick behavior on the planet.  First of all, not all of us do have that experience of being judged negatively for our sexuality.

Second, and most importantly, just because most of us do have less mainstream tastes does not mean we no longer have morality or the ability to tell right from wrong, or to determine what is harmful to others.  Sane people do not check those values at the door to the dungeon – and they can tell the difference between what is exploitative and what is not.

Unfortunately, the whole “your kink is OK” thing has been taken to an extreme that people use to justify all kinds of horrific behaviors in the name of kink.  This really needs to come to an end, IMO.  Some things just are not OK, and I think it’s irresponsible to always turn a blind eye and the other cheek to people doing such abusive and exploitative things such as engaging in sexual activity with animals and children.

All of you have pictured yourself killing someone at some point or another. Road-rage, a teacher, a boss, someone who posted something online that really got your blood to boil, etc. And none of you went to jail for it… the day you do we are all fucked.

Again, there is a huge difference between fantasy and actually doing what we may “picture” ourselves doing.

Discussing bestiality in the abstract as we are doing here is not a crime, nor should it be.  People who talk about why and how they get off on engaging in sexual behavior with animals, and who use public fora to seek others who want to actually engage in these behaviors is in fact a serious problem, and should be prohibited.

More importantly, everyone here knows the difference between play & fantasy and crossing the line into reality. If that was not the case, I would close FetLife’s doors.. and NOW.

That is so patently untrue as to be laughable, @JohnBaku.  Apparently you don’t follow any of the threads or groups about abuse in the kink community.  That’s a whole topic unto itself – and the problem is clearly growing.  A great deal of the problem stems precisely from the fact that there are legions of people who don’t have the first clue about the difference between fantasy and reality, and who use BDSM as an excuse to perpetrate nonconsensual behavior on others.  I do hope you will not close Fetlife’s doors now that you’ve been brought up to date about reality in this regard.

my very first flag is why would a person obviously opposed to an activity enter into a group and read through threads knowing they were going to be offended.

Sarafina_MM, the threads in question were in groups that are dedicated to legitimate discussions of animals as pets.  Finding the discussions turning to bestiality and people discussing how-tos and posting personal ads looking for animals to abuse in this manner, and other bestialists to be part of their games was not expected there at all.  I saw the links before they were deleted.

There is nothing wrong with being a pedophile, so long as everything will and will always remain within the boundary of the mind or of a fantasy with a consenting adult.

Well, then, that is not pedophilia, @good_kitty.  It’s a fantasy, or role playing.  The dictionary is your friend.  It is when things cross the line from being in the mind of the person to engaging in actual behavior (including seeking out, saving, and/or disseminating related images) that the problem exists.

Or at least it’s not acting on pedophilic impulses, and it’s the taking things from fantasy to any form of actual action that is the problem.

Why do you believe that animals can’t give consent?

AeonMalleus, can animals hold a conversation?  Show that they understand what the person wants to do to them?  Agree – explicitly?  In so many words?  About every detail?

I mean, really, come on.

Why would you think a baby or child can’t give consent?  First, it’s obvious that they don’t have the same powers of communications or understanding as an adult.  Second, absent those abilities, people in authority are bound to protect them from harm.  Both animals and children must trust the people in authority over them, as we hold the power of life and death over them.

This is an adult site…there should be no children here…what would pedophiles want here? …If they are not here then why would it need addressed?

Serafina_MM, no, there aren’t likely any children here – but pedophiles are here not just because that may not be their only sexual interest, but because they troll for other members who have children or younger siblings of the ages in which they have an interest.  I’ve seen it happen.  If you know who some of these people are, you can watch them “make nice” to people who have the ability to put them in proximity to their desired victims.  But that is not an issue specific to Fetlife.

Wow! A bunch of folks who engage in practices deemed aberrant by 99.8% of the balance of the planet being all judgmental about other folks they label perverts!

Actually, @Sir_JMark, there is evidence that at least 40% of the population engages in or has an interest in some form of kink.  The difference is that not all of them identify it in so many words.  At the end of the day, what they are condemning stems more from their misunderstandings of what we do (and not recognizing their own proclivities by the same verbiage) than anything else.

Rebecca, it will be a tragedy if you leave and let dog fuckers win.

I totally agree.  We need people like Becca here.

I can attest to the fact that the caretakers don’t always do shit when photos and threads that violate the TOU in this respect are reported.  I’ve reported a number myself – and they are still visible on people’s profiles.  That doesn’t mean we should stop reporting them.

I also agree with those who question why to bother even having TOU or indeed, even the caretakers themselves, if enforcement is erratic, and is going to be this arbitrary.

I for one, refuse to be shamed about how I feel or what makes me wet.

NudeGirl, I don’t care what makes people wet to think about.  I do care when they act on those  attractions when doing so is exploitative of others and nonconsensual.

So, why do you (whoever you are) think that animals can’t consent? They consent to walks and wrestling and we know that by how they act.

By that argument, @AeonMalleus, people who are raped must consent to the rape oif they don’t fight back. Even children.  Which is total and complete bullshit.  In any event, walks and wrestling are part of normal behaviour with pets.  They need both walks and play.  Both are part of their natural repertoire – and neither one involves exploiting them in harmful ways for our own pleasure.

Where is the Fetlife server located again?

I’ve heard that they are actually in Dallas – which means that the laws of the US apply, and specifically Texas.  I can’t confirm that information about their location, though.

For those of you who advocate just turning a blind eye to bestiality and other forms of abuse, on the premise that it is not your business, I’d ask you to reconsider your stance.  If we are not our brothers’ keepers to the extent indicated by keeping people from harming others wherever possible, or at least speaking out openly against practices that we believe to be harmful and/or exploitative, then we have lost all sense of morality and human decency.

Hillel said it best: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” (Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14).  We must all be our brothers’ keepers to some extent.

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European Parliament
TO: EU Parliament President and other representatives:
Bestiality is a worldwide occurrence, and largely ignored by most because of its shameful nature. Europe, which the world looks upon as the model of civilization, is not free from bestiality. European abusers struggle to justify this type of cruelty under the “freedom to rape animals” umbrella which grossly ignores the pain and stress caused by animal rapists. Like children, animals suffer terribly in the hands of their molesters.

EU members, such as The Netherlands and Denmark appear to be worse than the rest as they openly defend this cruel practice as the right of their minority of abusers. Denmark goes as far as permitting animal sex farm bordellos, a thriving business where their owners profit from animal rape. A statement from a public figure, supposed to be protecting animals in Denmark, has brought chills to the animal protection community: “It is OK to have sex with an animal as long as no suffering is inflicted on the animal… So there is no need to change the law as people’s rights would be violated by banning sex with animals.” Learn more from these links:

www.notoanimalrape.nl & www.antifursociety.org/ANIMAL_SEX_FARM_EUROPE.html

All attempts to end this cruelty have been met with utmost complacency, closely resembling mockery. The issue of bestiality can go beyond hurting animals: If it is OK to rape animals “as long as it is not hurting others, ” then what will come next? Sex with children as long it is not hurting others? Animals and children are both vulnerable to rapists who take pleasure in sadistically overpowering their defenseless victims.

This is not about the rights of a minority to rape animals. It is about the pain caused to species that are not in a position to consent, and forced to do something unnatural to their nature. Would a child have sex with its molester if given a choice? Animals are not physically equipped to have sex with humans. When it happens it is rape. There is severe pain and fear involved in it, AND THEY DO GET HURT. Photos of small animals killed miserably during rape are abundant on the internet, and too gruesome to be posted here.

AN ANIMAL RAPIST COULD BE THE NEXT CHILD MOLESTER! Serial killers almost invariably start their bloody careers practicing on animals. What makes one believe that an animal rapist will not be the next child molester? Parents should be aware of those who practice bestiality so as to protect their children from possible child molesters.

Please take a moment to write to your representatives asking them to pass laws against bestiality simply because it is CRUEL and animal abusers are one step away from harming defenseless humans as well. On the above links, you will find addresses to the European Parliament and your representatives as well as letter samples.

By signing this petition, you will be asking the European Parliament leaders as well as your representatives, to pass laws to protect defenseless animals from being raped by humans. It is time for the world to stop defending the indefensible, and Europe, of all places, should take the first step to end this contemptible cruelty to satisfy a sadistic minority.

Thank you for your compassion,

The Anti-Fur Society, USA
www.antifursociety.org
The Bright Eyes Society, The Netherlands
http://www.brighteyes.dk
ASSOCIACAO ANIMAL, Portugal
http://www.animal.org.pt
RESPEK TIERE, Austria
http://www.respektiere.at