Archive for the ‘Dog Psychology’ Category

My response to the thread A suggestion about Animal Abuse and Bestiality in the Fetlife Suggestion Box:

Bestiality is not a damn kink. It’s not a form of BDSM – any more than having sex with a child is. Period. An animal can no more give consent than a child can. Any bottom feeding piece of garbage that tries to fly under the “my kink is not your kink” flag for this issue needs to be prosecuted.

Very well said, @LuciferCat.  And then they ought to be strung up from the nearest tree or at least spend the rest of their lives behind bars where they can’t hurt anyone else, or any other helpless creatures.

Just because someone out there does something and gets off on it does not mean that the activity in question is a legitimate kink.

It is also very well documented that people who abuse animals often tend to go on to abuse people.  It turns out that this link is particularly strong when the animal abuse includes sexual abuse.

While the risk to the animal is most obvious with human males penetrating the animals, the risk from animals being sexual with women is also substantial, although for less obvious reasons.  Anyone who thinks that women having sex with animals is benign also needs to seriously rethink this.  It is clear that at least with dogs, an assortment of negative effects happen to the animals with this as well.

I’m also learning that people use all sorts of tactics to draw attention away from their disgusting habits of having sex with animals.  One of the recent ones I’ve heard is that a written fantasy involving sex with an animal is not the same thing as actual bestiality.  Very true – but when a person also writes that they are “into animals” in a group dedicated to discussing extreme and disgusting sexual preferences, particularly in the same sentence as a list of other sexual behaviors they documentably actually engage in, it is clearly flat out bullshit.  If it were a question of fantasy, or only a thought vs an actual practice, people will state that specifically, or that they are “curious about” it, particularly when they are clearly educated and articulate.

I’ve also seen people who have made such statements then show an interest in animal role play, possibly to distract attention from the issue at hand.  Nice try – but people who are into animal role play do not say that they are “into animals”.  They say they are into “puppy play”, or “human ponies”, or “animal role play” or the like.  The distinctions are obvious and unmistakable.

I’ve also seen people play other semantic games and claim that despite saying that they are “into animals” in a sexual context, that does not mean they are bestialists.  Sorry, but that also doesn’t hold water.  By definition, bestiality involves having sex with animals, or “being into” animals in a sexual manner.

With respect to the argument that eating meat or wearing fur or leather is the same thing as fucking animals, that also does not hold water.  Animals have been part of the human food chain since the beginning of time, and have always provided clothing for people.  That is part of the natural order of things.  If people choose not to eat meat or wear leather, that is their choice – but the evidence is also mounting that those who do not eat meat often end up malnourished because they tend to have difficulty getting enough protein in their diets.  Humans are omnivores.  We need animal protein in our diets.

There are also many, many uses for other parts of cows and other animals that are slaughtered for human food.  A recent article I read listed something like 30 different products that come from them.  I can’t find it at the moment, but will post it when I do, but a few can be found here in the meantime.  There are many, many more, and the products that result are so ubiquitous in our world that it is virtually impossible to avoid them.

Fucking animals – or having them fuck you or otherwise stimulate you sexually – is not the same thing at all.  If we were meant to do so, we would have body parts that match more closely, and we would be able to reproduce with them.  Neither is the case.

Man is the only animal that engages in sexual behavior because it feels good.  The rest do it solely out of instinct, as demonstrations of dominance and pack leadership, and for procreation.  Engaging in these behaviors for one’s own personal sexual gratification takes nonconsensual advantage of the animal and the person’s position of authority over the animal.  It is indeed nonconsensual and exploitative because animals are not capable of meaningful or informed consent – and even if the animal appears to be enjoying it, the animal’s mindset about what is happening is quite different from that of the person.

I don’t think people should tell anyone that their fantasies are wrong, sick or twisted.

There’s nothing wrong with fantasies, @JohnBaku (although I would argue that some indicate very deep mental disturbances, but that is beyond the scope of this post).  No one gets hurt when people fantasize.

What’s wrong is actually playing them out with creatures who are not capable of consent.  The moment people start talking about actually executing those fantasies, or discussing actually having acted on them, that is a whole different kettle of fish.  That’s when people (or animals) actually do get hurt.  And that is not OK in this universe or any other.

Especially people from this community… you know how it feels to be judged and fuck does it not feel good… so why judge others and make them feel like shit.

I’m so tired of this argument as a justification for every kind of sick behavior on the planet.  First of all, not all of us do have that experience of being judged negatively for our sexuality.

Second, and most importantly, just because most of us do have less mainstream tastes does not mean we no longer have morality or the ability to tell right from wrong, or to determine what is harmful to others.  Sane people do not check those values at the door to the dungeon – and they can tell the difference between what is exploitative and what is not.

Unfortunately, the whole “your kink is OK” thing has been taken to an extreme that people use to justify all kinds of horrific behaviors in the name of kink.  This really needs to come to an end, IMO.  Some things just are not OK, and I think it’s irresponsible to always turn a blind eye and the other cheek to people doing such abusive and exploitative things such as engaging in sexual activity with animals and children.

All of you have pictured yourself killing someone at some point or another. Road-rage, a teacher, a boss, someone who posted something online that really got your blood to boil, etc. And none of you went to jail for it… the day you do we are all fucked.

Again, there is a huge difference between fantasy and actually doing what we may “picture” ourselves doing.

Discussing bestiality in the abstract as we are doing here is not a crime, nor should it be.  People who talk about why and how they get off on engaging in sexual behavior with animals, and who use public fora to seek others who want to actually engage in these behaviors is in fact a serious problem, and should be prohibited.

More importantly, everyone here knows the difference between play & fantasy and crossing the line into reality. If that was not the case, I would close FetLife’s doors.. and NOW.

That is so patently untrue as to be laughable, @JohnBaku.  Apparently you don’t follow any of the threads or groups about abuse in the kink community.  That’s a whole topic unto itself – and the problem is clearly growing.  A great deal of the problem stems precisely from the fact that there are legions of people who don’t have the first clue about the difference between fantasy and reality, and who use BDSM as an excuse to perpetrate nonconsensual behavior on others.  I do hope you will not close Fetlife’s doors now that you’ve been brought up to date about reality in this regard.

my very first flag is why would a person obviously opposed to an activity enter into a group and read through threads knowing they were going to be offended.

Sarafina_MM, the threads in question were in groups that are dedicated to legitimate discussions of animals as pets.  Finding the discussions turning to bestiality and people discussing how-tos and posting personal ads looking for animals to abuse in this manner, and other bestialists to be part of their games was not expected there at all.  I saw the links before they were deleted.

There is nothing wrong with being a pedophile, so long as everything will and will always remain within the boundary of the mind or of a fantasy with a consenting adult.

Well, then, that is not pedophilia, @good_kitty.  It’s a fantasy, or role playing.  The dictionary is your friend.  It is when things cross the line from being in the mind of the person to engaging in actual behavior (including seeking out, saving, and/or disseminating related images) that the problem exists.

Or at least it’s not acting on pedophilic impulses, and it’s the taking things from fantasy to any form of actual action that is the problem.

Why do you believe that animals can’t give consent?

AeonMalleus, can animals hold a conversation?  Show that they understand what the person wants to do to them?  Agree – explicitly?  In so many words?  About every detail?

I mean, really, come on.

Why would you think a baby or child can’t give consent?  First, it’s obvious that they don’t have the same powers of communications or understanding as an adult.  Second, absent those abilities, people in authority are bound to protect them from harm.  Both animals and children must trust the people in authority over them, as we hold the power of life and death over them.

This is an adult site…there should be no children here…what would pedophiles want here? …If they are not here then why would it need addressed?

Serafina_MM, no, there aren’t likely any children here – but pedophiles are here not just because that may not be their only sexual interest, but because they troll for other members who have children or younger siblings of the ages in which they have an interest.  I’ve seen it happen.  If you know who some of these people are, you can watch them “make nice” to people who have the ability to put them in proximity to their desired victims.  But that is not an issue specific to Fetlife.

Wow! A bunch of folks who engage in practices deemed aberrant by 99.8% of the balance of the planet being all judgmental about other folks they label perverts!

Actually, @Sir_JMark, there is evidence that at least 40% of the population engages in or has an interest in some form of kink.  The difference is that not all of them identify it in so many words.  At the end of the day, what they are condemning stems more from their misunderstandings of what we do (and not recognizing their own proclivities by the same verbiage) than anything else.

Rebecca, it will be a tragedy if you leave and let dog fuckers win.

I totally agree.  We need people like Becca here.

I can attest to the fact that the caretakers don’t always do shit when photos and threads that violate the TOU in this respect are reported.  I’ve reported a number myself – and they are still visible on people’s profiles.  That doesn’t mean we should stop reporting them.

I also agree with those who question why to bother even having TOU or indeed, even the caretakers themselves, if enforcement is erratic, and is going to be this arbitrary.

I for one, refuse to be shamed about how I feel or what makes me wet.

NudeGirl, I don’t care what makes people wet to think about.  I do care when they act on those  attractions when doing so is exploitative of others and nonconsensual.

So, why do you (whoever you are) think that animals can’t consent? They consent to walks and wrestling and we know that by how they act.

By that argument, @AeonMalleus, people who are raped must consent to the rape oif they don’t fight back. Even children.  Which is total and complete bullshit.  In any event, walks and wrestling are part of normal behaviour with pets.  They need both walks and play.  Both are part of their natural repertoire – and neither one involves exploiting them in harmful ways for our own pleasure.

Where is the Fetlife server located again?

I’ve heard that they are actually in Dallas – which means that the laws of the US apply, and specifically Texas.  I can’t confirm that information about their location, though.

For those of you who advocate just turning a blind eye to bestiality and other forms of abuse, on the premise that it is not your business, I’d ask you to reconsider your stance.  If we are not our brothers’ keepers to the extent indicated by keeping people from harming others wherever possible, or at least speaking out openly against practices that we believe to be harmful and/or exploitative, then we have lost all sense of morality and human decency.

Hillel said it best: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” (Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14).  We must all be our brothers’ keepers to some extent.

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An expert in animal rescue and dog psychology and behavior addressed a question posed on a local mailing list about the negative effects of bestiality on dogs.  Reposted here by permission of the author, Atheris.

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Post #6320 on Kink in the Bay Area yahoo e-list, on June 29, 2004

In answer to questions posed by our Moderator on the negative effects of Bestiality on Dogs.

Note: Oct. 7, 2010: I have updated this a bit and added some additional resources. I hope to write a full article soon!

Mistress B- I can answer these questions for you. First of all I will say I have been studying dog behavior and psychology, training dogs, and reading as many books by other trainers as I can get a hold of since I was a small child (yes I read the ‘adult’ books and had to get permission to check them out when I was 10!). I have a lot of experience with real dogs and have been doing this much longer than I have been in the BDSM scene.

First a bit of background on the dog basics- there is NO way I can cover everything I know in this post- it would be a book and too long. I will recommend some books at the end of this post to get people started if they are interested.

But – for the basics- dogs are not human. Dogs don’t communicate like we do- they can’t speak English or Spanish or Japanese, or any other language that we can speak. They DO communicate quite fluently in their own language. Dogs do D/s and their language is largely based on it. But to make it more confusing for us humans- they do D/s much differently than we do.  Most non-kinky people just ignore or don’t want to know that their dogs do D/s because they find it ‘offensive’. The dogs still communicate in it whether you like it or not. Since they can’t speak our language and we can understand theirs and even ‘speak’ it if we choose to learn how, I feel that it is our responsibility to do so.

It is in a dog’s nature to try to become Alpha- this is not something that is done once and then it is never addressed again. In a pack of dogs the Alpha dog may become ill or be killed- the pack will need another Alpha member and one of the other members will have to prove they are fit to be in the position (I am not going to go into how this is done as it is done in many different ways.)

In a human “pack” (and this IS how the dog sees your family), if you are not Alpha, then your dog is. This is a fact- not something you choose. Even if you don’t see it this way- the dog still does. This is why so many people have dogs that bite and they don’t know why. Many small dogs are dominant in their household while the human members of the pack don’t even realize it! Some people do realize it and think it is ‘cute’. IMO it is NOT cute to have any dog bite a human- whether that dog is a Rottweiler or a Chihuahua.

1. Is it any more abusive to a dog than forcing it to mate with
another dog and bear pups for human profit?  When a dog is taken to
be “bred”, neither dog “consents” to intercourse and
the female doesn’t consent to bearing young which will be
snatched from her as soon as they are ready to be sold.   Do the
folks who believe that human/dog sex is immoral because a dog cannot
consent find dog breeders to be abhorrent too?

Ok- you think of your family like this: (or something like this) there is you, your partner(s), your children. The pets may or may not be considered ‘family’. The dog looks at it like this: You, pack member, and your partner(s) and children are all pack members along with the dog. This is the dog’s ‘family’. The dog needs to know where he/she’s place in the pack hierarchy is.  This is not ‘optional’ this is how the dog sees it whether you do or not and many problems with dogs can boil down to problems with understanding this one thing. If you are not Alpha and none of your human family is- the dog probably is, at least in the dog’s mind.

It is the right of the Alpha pack member to control sex. It is very common for only the Alpha members to mate- and in packs in which non-Alpha members mate, the subordinate members NEVER mate with the Alpha member. This is not done in dog society. So for you to set up a breeding with another dog and that dog is also not alpha you probably don’t have a problem. The minute you have sex with your dog the dog is now EQUAL in his mind in the pack position. Now if you have a dog that is naturally more submissive- you probably won’t have a problem that is overt, although I still feel it is abusive because submissive dogs really DO NOT want to be in an Alpha position. It makes them nervous and insecure. If you have a dog that is not submissive then you will almost certainly have a problem. Dogs do not just ‘take over’ in the pack status- they do it very subtly and very quietly- in most cases- only if there is a BIG blow out between two members who feel they are both qualified for the position will you have an aggressive problem between dogs.

I once had a very interesting dominance confrontation with a small dog (this dog weighed less than 10 pounds). If there had been anyone else there, I am betting most people would have not even realized that it went on. It was entirely silent and all body language and I never touched the dog. It took about 5 seconds and at the end the dog recognized me as Alpha (even though he didn’t recognize his Mistress as such). If this dog had been a large dog and an established Alpha it may have not gone so quietly and I might have ended up in the hospital- dogs do have some idea of their ability to hold that position, even though people like to think otherwise. This dog would listen to me and obey me – he stopped barking incessantly unless his Mistress was there- since she encouraged it without realizing it. She encouraged all the behavior problems by not being Alpha.

You cannot train a dog unless you are Alpha in the dog’s mind. You have NO right to tell a dog what to do or when to do it unless you are Alpha in the dog’s mind. This is not something you can change. You either understand it and utilize it and communicate clearly with the dog in his/her language or the dog will misunderstand you. This is the reason I don’t ‘train dogs for people’ and it is the reason that when people go to an obedience class with their dog- the trainer can get the dog to do things that the owner can’t- because the trainer establishes Alpha status in seconds and the owner has not done so. It is MUCH easier to take a young dog- establish Alpha status and maintain that status than it is to take a full grown dog (especially a large one) and ‘take the dog down a notch’.

2. Regarding the proposition that allowing a dog to have intercourse
with a human will result in an aggressive dog which will have to be
killed because intercourse in dogs is related to dominance, I ask
whether it is any worse than allowing a dog to do the following
activities, e.g.,  allowing a dog to sit on furniture, allowing a dog
to sleep in your bed, allowing a dog to eat at the table with you,
etc?   These activities are also related to dominance, but I have
never heard folks who do these things be accused of dog abuse.

It can be equally as bad to allow the dog to sit on the furiture as it is to have sex with them- depending on the situation. I have no problem letting my dogs on the furniture when I want them up there- BUT if I say “get off” they get off- no questions, no arguments. This is because they recognize me as Alpha in the pack. If they were Alpha and I said “get off the couch” They would not listen as I would have no right to tell them what to do- in fact THEY have the right to tell me what to do. The Alpha pack member controls ALL resources- including food, sex and ‘comfy places’. This doesn’t mean that they can’t have sex or they don’t get fed- but instead they do so at the direction of the Alpha or AFTER the Alpha member. Sex is more complex than this and I get into it a bit here but this can’t cover the entire scope of what is going on in the dog’s head.

A while ago it was believed that dogs only understood short one word commands and were not able to understand more complex phrase or ideas- this is not true. I have had dogs understand “get down here right now” (calling a dog from upstairs where I was not, to downstairs where I was) and my dog understands that “I can’t ever get on the bed but I can get on the couch however I have to get off if Alpha says so”)

A lot will also depend on the individual dog’s natural tendency toward Dominance or submission. All dogs have some place they fit on that scale- the more dominant dogs will constantly strive for the Alpha position and the most submissive dogs never will. Unless you really understand dog language you have NO way of knowing where a dog is on this scale. There is an excellent scale for evaluating puppies to find out what their natural tendencies are (breeders use this to determine if a dog will be a good working dog of any sort, for competition or for guide dog or service dog jobs).

One example I will give is one Lhasa that I knew of- I was visiting a friend whose mother had just got a Lhasa puppy. While I was there the puppy was chewing on something he was not supposed to be chewing on- I pointed it out and my friend’s mother took the item- the dog didn’t let go. Instead the dog growled. SHE let go and the dog stepped up the ladder in the pack hierarchy without her even knowing it! Six months later NO ONE- not family nor guests could sit on the couch if the dog was on the couch. They thought it was ‘cute’. If the dog had been a large one- they would have had a problem. Dogs of all sizes do D/s the same way- but the fact is large dogs can cause humans more damage – even kill.

I am a promoter of responsible dog ownership all the time- not just on this list. I am active in my dog club too- although I keep my ‘doggie’ activities very separate from my kink life. I try to help people understand dogs- vanilla or kinky people as it IS as much of a problem to allow a dog to be dominant in any situation- whether you are having sex with them or not- and if you have a large dog you are playing with fire and you might get burned, you might not and someone else might- you never know.

Many here [on this list] may not know but there is a LOT of activity in certain Cities trying to pass breed specific legislation (banning certain breeds- of which my main breed is one of them). Dog owners have been hurt most recently by that incident in SF involving the large dog that killed a women (and I have heard they were having sex with the dogs but I have to research this more before believing it).

People often think a good protection dog is aggressive- this is a myth- good protection dogs are well trained. Police dogs are NOT aggressive as many people would think they are. They are very well trained and the Human part of the team is Alpha. The police officer that handles the dog MUST work with the dog a lot – it is not something you just ‘issue’ like you do a gun since there is a relationship there that has to be established and maintained.  I actually believe that most of the people that are a danger to responsible dog owners are not kinky people- they are people who want ‘an aggressive dog to be a good watch dog’ and instead of learning what they can about dogs- they just try to make a ‘quick’ mean dog and they succeed.

But you can’t do that if you don’t know anything about it. Most people (both kinky people who want to have sex with dogs or vanilla people who want a dog to play with the kids) don’t want to bother with learning about the animal they have chosen to share their life with. This is the reason the shelters are so full of unwanted animals- most of those animals are very healthy and there is nothing wrong with them- they just need some training, including knowing their place in the pack. They need exercise (many people grossly underestimate the amount of exercise a dog needs).

Dogs are highly social animals- just like us, and they have a very complex language just like we do. They understand social heirarchy and in many ways are so much like us- but yet so different. All I ask is that people try to understand them before doing things that might hurt them.

The books I recommend are: (more…)

Animals very much are harmed by having sex with people, whether receptive or active – and even if that contact is only oral.

I’m hoping to have reposting permission soon to I’ve now received permission and posted some writings by a kinky dog trainer who has an extensive background in dog psychology that further expands on the issue, but basically, at least with dogs, sexual behavior is a right reserved for the dominant animal in the pack, and when a pet is allowed to (or forced to) engage in such behavior with people, that makes him think he’s the boss – and that can have seriously negative repercussions for both the animal and the people.

The dominance problems that result from allowing an animal to behave in an alpha fashion with a person does result in many of these animals having to be put down – but often not before someone (frequently a child) is mauled or killed.  Even “just” allowing an animal to lick a human being sexually sets up this dominance psychology that can lead to problems.

I’d say this is a serious threat to the animal, as well as to people.

Remember that case a few years back with the couple whose large dogs mauled and killed a neighbor woman (I can’t remember the names offhand)?  If memory serves, I seem to recall there being information that the woman owner had been having sex with the dogs.  This was a big part of why they lost control of the animals.

Here’s also a link to some other case reports that show just how stressed some of these animals who are used for receptive sex by humans are, and how happy they are to be rid of their tormentors, despite the jerks’ claims that the dogs loved it – “Sexual Abuse of Animals: Crime and Fantasy“.

There is substantial evidence that people who commit violent crimes often get their start as animal abusers, and this much is well known.  What isn’t as well known is that of those people, the worst of them also have a history of sexual abuse of animals.  This subject is addressed more extensively on other posts on this blog, and in the links.

So even if the animals aren’t directly harmed, people clearly often are, which is reason enough by itself to ban a practice like this and make it illegal.

It is thus a critical public health issue to stop animal abuse in general, but also specifically sexual abuse of animals.

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