Archive for the ‘Consent’ Category

My response to the thread A suggestion about Animal Abuse and Bestiality in the Fetlife Suggestion Box:

Bestiality is not a damn kink. It’s not a form of BDSM – any more than having sex with a child is. Period. An animal can no more give consent than a child can. Any bottom feeding piece of garbage that tries to fly under the “my kink is not your kink” flag for this issue needs to be prosecuted.

Very well said, @LuciferCat.  And then they ought to be strung up from the nearest tree or at least spend the rest of their lives behind bars where they can’t hurt anyone else, or any other helpless creatures.

Just because someone out there does something and gets off on it does not mean that the activity in question is a legitimate kink.

It is also very well documented that people who abuse animals often tend to go on to abuse people.  It turns out that this link is particularly strong when the animal abuse includes sexual abuse.

While the risk to the animal is most obvious with human males penetrating the animals, the risk from animals being sexual with women is also substantial, although for less obvious reasons.  Anyone who thinks that women having sex with animals is benign also needs to seriously rethink this.  It is clear that at least with dogs, an assortment of negative effects happen to the animals with this as well.

I’m also learning that people use all sorts of tactics to draw attention away from their disgusting habits of having sex with animals.  One of the recent ones I’ve heard is that a written fantasy involving sex with an animal is not the same thing as actual bestiality.  Very true – but when a person also writes that they are “into animals” in a group dedicated to discussing extreme and disgusting sexual preferences, particularly in the same sentence as a list of other sexual behaviors they documentably actually engage in, it is clearly flat out bullshit.  If it were a question of fantasy, or only a thought vs an actual practice, people will state that specifically, or that they are “curious about” it, particularly when they are clearly educated and articulate.

I’ve also seen people who have made such statements then show an interest in animal role play, possibly to distract attention from the issue at hand.  Nice try – but people who are into animal role play do not say that they are “into animals”.  They say they are into “puppy play”, or “human ponies”, or “animal role play” or the like.  The distinctions are obvious and unmistakable.

I’ve also seen people play other semantic games and claim that despite saying that they are “into animals” in a sexual context, that does not mean they are bestialists.  Sorry, but that also doesn’t hold water.  By definition, bestiality involves having sex with animals, or “being into” animals in a sexual manner.

With respect to the argument that eating meat or wearing fur or leather is the same thing as fucking animals, that also does not hold water.  Animals have been part of the human food chain since the beginning of time, and have always provided clothing for people.  That is part of the natural order of things.  If people choose not to eat meat or wear leather, that is their choice – but the evidence is also mounting that those who do not eat meat often end up malnourished because they tend to have difficulty getting enough protein in their diets.  Humans are omnivores.  We need animal protein in our diets.

There are also many, many uses for other parts of cows and other animals that are slaughtered for human food.  A recent article I read listed something like 30 different products that come from them.  I can’t find it at the moment, but will post it when I do, but a few can be found here in the meantime.  There are many, many more, and the products that result are so ubiquitous in our world that it is virtually impossible to avoid them.

Fucking animals – or having them fuck you or otherwise stimulate you sexually – is not the same thing at all.  If we were meant to do so, we would have body parts that match more closely, and we would be able to reproduce with them.  Neither is the case.

Man is the only animal that engages in sexual behavior because it feels good.  The rest do it solely out of instinct, as demonstrations of dominance and pack leadership, and for procreation.  Engaging in these behaviors for one’s own personal sexual gratification takes nonconsensual advantage of the animal and the person’s position of authority over the animal.  It is indeed nonconsensual and exploitative because animals are not capable of meaningful or informed consent – and even if the animal appears to be enjoying it, the animal’s mindset about what is happening is quite different from that of the person.

I don’t think people should tell anyone that their fantasies are wrong, sick or twisted.

There’s nothing wrong with fantasies, @JohnBaku (although I would argue that some indicate very deep mental disturbances, but that is beyond the scope of this post).  No one gets hurt when people fantasize.

What’s wrong is actually playing them out with creatures who are not capable of consent.  The moment people start talking about actually executing those fantasies, or discussing actually having acted on them, that is a whole different kettle of fish.  That’s when people (or animals) actually do get hurt.  And that is not OK in this universe or any other.

Especially people from this community… you know how it feels to be judged and fuck does it not feel good… so why judge others and make them feel like shit.

I’m so tired of this argument as a justification for every kind of sick behavior on the planet.  First of all, not all of us do have that experience of being judged negatively for our sexuality.

Second, and most importantly, just because most of us do have less mainstream tastes does not mean we no longer have morality or the ability to tell right from wrong, or to determine what is harmful to others.  Sane people do not check those values at the door to the dungeon – and they can tell the difference between what is exploitative and what is not.

Unfortunately, the whole “your kink is OK” thing has been taken to an extreme that people use to justify all kinds of horrific behaviors in the name of kink.  This really needs to come to an end, IMO.  Some things just are not OK, and I think it’s irresponsible to always turn a blind eye and the other cheek to people doing such abusive and exploitative things such as engaging in sexual activity with animals and children.

All of you have pictured yourself killing someone at some point or another. Road-rage, a teacher, a boss, someone who posted something online that really got your blood to boil, etc. And none of you went to jail for it… the day you do we are all fucked.

Again, there is a huge difference between fantasy and actually doing what we may “picture” ourselves doing.

Discussing bestiality in the abstract as we are doing here is not a crime, nor should it be.  People who talk about why and how they get off on engaging in sexual behavior with animals, and who use public fora to seek others who want to actually engage in these behaviors is in fact a serious problem, and should be prohibited.

More importantly, everyone here knows the difference between play & fantasy and crossing the line into reality. If that was not the case, I would close FetLife’s doors.. and NOW.

That is so patently untrue as to be laughable, @JohnBaku.  Apparently you don’t follow any of the threads or groups about abuse in the kink community.  That’s a whole topic unto itself – and the problem is clearly growing.  A great deal of the problem stems precisely from the fact that there are legions of people who don’t have the first clue about the difference between fantasy and reality, and who use BDSM as an excuse to perpetrate nonconsensual behavior on others.  I do hope you will not close Fetlife’s doors now that you’ve been brought up to date about reality in this regard.

my very first flag is why would a person obviously opposed to an activity enter into a group and read through threads knowing they were going to be offended.

Sarafina_MM, the threads in question were in groups that are dedicated to legitimate discussions of animals as pets.  Finding the discussions turning to bestiality and people discussing how-tos and posting personal ads looking for animals to abuse in this manner, and other bestialists to be part of their games was not expected there at all.  I saw the links before they were deleted.

There is nothing wrong with being a pedophile, so long as everything will and will always remain within the boundary of the mind or of a fantasy with a consenting adult.

Well, then, that is not pedophilia, @good_kitty.  It’s a fantasy, or role playing.  The dictionary is your friend.  It is when things cross the line from being in the mind of the person to engaging in actual behavior (including seeking out, saving, and/or disseminating related images) that the problem exists.

Or at least it’s not acting on pedophilic impulses, and it’s the taking things from fantasy to any form of actual action that is the problem.

Why do you believe that animals can’t give consent?

AeonMalleus, can animals hold a conversation?  Show that they understand what the person wants to do to them?  Agree – explicitly?  In so many words?  About every detail?

I mean, really, come on.

Why would you think a baby or child can’t give consent?  First, it’s obvious that they don’t have the same powers of communications or understanding as an adult.  Second, absent those abilities, people in authority are bound to protect them from harm.  Both animals and children must trust the people in authority over them, as we hold the power of life and death over them.

This is an adult site…there should be no children here…what would pedophiles want here? …If they are not here then why would it need addressed?

Serafina_MM, no, there aren’t likely any children here – but pedophiles are here not just because that may not be their only sexual interest, but because they troll for other members who have children or younger siblings of the ages in which they have an interest.  I’ve seen it happen.  If you know who some of these people are, you can watch them “make nice” to people who have the ability to put them in proximity to their desired victims.  But that is not an issue specific to Fetlife.

Wow! A bunch of folks who engage in practices deemed aberrant by 99.8% of the balance of the planet being all judgmental about other folks they label perverts!

Actually, @Sir_JMark, there is evidence that at least 40% of the population engages in or has an interest in some form of kink.  The difference is that not all of them identify it in so many words.  At the end of the day, what they are condemning stems more from their misunderstandings of what we do (and not recognizing their own proclivities by the same verbiage) than anything else.

Rebecca, it will be a tragedy if you leave and let dog fuckers win.

I totally agree.  We need people like Becca here.

I can attest to the fact that the caretakers don’t always do shit when photos and threads that violate the TOU in this respect are reported.  I’ve reported a number myself – and they are still visible on people’s profiles.  That doesn’t mean we should stop reporting them.

I also agree with those who question why to bother even having TOU or indeed, even the caretakers themselves, if enforcement is erratic, and is going to be this arbitrary.

I for one, refuse to be shamed about how I feel or what makes me wet.

NudeGirl, I don’t care what makes people wet to think about.  I do care when they act on those  attractions when doing so is exploitative of others and nonconsensual.

So, why do you (whoever you are) think that animals can’t consent? They consent to walks and wrestling and we know that by how they act.

By that argument, @AeonMalleus, people who are raped must consent to the rape oif they don’t fight back. Even children.  Which is total and complete bullshit.  In any event, walks and wrestling are part of normal behaviour with pets.  They need both walks and play.  Both are part of their natural repertoire – and neither one involves exploiting them in harmful ways for our own pleasure.

Where is the Fetlife server located again?

I’ve heard that they are actually in Dallas – which means that the laws of the US apply, and specifically Texas.  I can’t confirm that information about their location, though.

For those of you who advocate just turning a blind eye to bestiality and other forms of abuse, on the premise that it is not your business, I’d ask you to reconsider your stance.  If we are not our brothers’ keepers to the extent indicated by keeping people from harming others wherever possible, or at least speaking out openly against practices that we believe to be harmful and/or exploitative, then we have lost all sense of morality and human decency.

Hillel said it best: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” (Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14).  We must all be our brothers’ keepers to some extent.

In their excellent article, “Here we go again: PETA expands its definition of bestiality“, Vegansaurus! exposes the latest in PETA’s idiocy, namely they are now equating artificial insemination of animals and even women receiving sexual stimulation from riding horseback with bestiality – and claiming that there’s nothing wrong with people fucking animals.  Their post is well worth reading by itself, in addition to the article they are responding to in the Huffington Post that equates eating meat with bestiality.

I originally wrote much of the post that follows as a response to both Vegansaurus’s post and the PETA piece, and then decided to open this blog and post it here instead, so as to not highjack Vegansurus’s agenda, and so that I could speak more freely and extensively about my own point of view.  I realized I was starting to stray somewhat from their focus.

I’m no vegan, and I do believe that we humans are the top of the food chain, but I do also very much believe in humane treatment of them through out the process, the lack of which in current food processing methods is already well-known and written about extensively elsewhere.  Those practices must change, to be sure.  I won’t debate that.   I also don’t keep kosher, but very much respect the laws of kashrut that are intended to minimize the suffering of animals and to respect the contribution they make to our survival as people.  There is a reason that the Torah commands us to feed our animals before we eat ourselves (among many other things), and that is to ensure we don’t forget them after we ourselves are satisfied, to be sure we care for them well.  Whether or not one ascribes to a particular religious point of view or not, however, the belief in the importance of taking good care of the creatures who depend upon us for their very existence, and to minimize their suffering throughout their lifespan, including at its termination, is what matters.  You don’t have to have any religion at all to feel strongly about that.

It does not take a rocket scientist, however, to realize that artificial insemination is in no way the same thing as people engaging in sexual behavior with animals for the purpose of the person’s sexual gratification.  One has a legitimate husbandry purpose that results in feeding a lot more people, and when done humanely, is quite clinical and results in no harm to the animal; the other is sheer exploitation and abuse, for all of the reasons I detail elsewhere in this blog and below, and which Vegansaurus discusses so well.

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The Huffington Post article is one of the most twisted things I’ve read on this subject to date.  There is no way that any kind of bestiality is consensual, and no way that it is not abusive to animals, whether actively doing something sexual *to* the animal, or having it do something to *you*.  That PETA should even consider this point of view is incredible.  To equate it with eating meat, however, is beyond ridiculous.

Aside from the obvious injuries that occur when people do things like jam rods into the orifices of helpless creatures, or when people get their own colons penetrated and they die from the injuries, there is the problem of what happens to the animal when it gets the idea it is dominant to people, as does clearly happen with some animals subjected to sexual abuse, particularly dogs.  (I would guess there are more species for which this may apply, but much less is known about the psychology of nondomestic animals and how they interact with people.)

There is extremely little written on this subject, but anyone who has been involved in pet rescue will tell you that, at least with dogs, they sometimes have to be put down after being involved in bestiality because sex is a dominance issue with them, and once they get the idea they are dominant to people, they can become uncontrollable and extremely dangerous, particularly to children.  People have been mauled even to death by dogs who have been subject to animal sexual abuse; children are most frequently the victims because they are small and cannot fight back effectively..

When that happens, the animal has to be euthanized because it can’t be rehabilitated to be safe around people any more.

I fail to understand how this could possibly be in any animal’s best interests.

And it cannot possibly be consensual, as animals lack the inherent capacity to consent, as defined by law.  Even if the animal does “enjoy” its encounters with people, death is a high price to pay, especially when it’s the people who have created the situation to start with. (more…)

Bestiality and Lack of Consent

Posted: December 12, 2010 by stopbestiality in Academic studies, Animal Abuse, Anti-bestiality, Consent

Guess what turns out to be one of the single largest reasons both men and women to engage in bestiality?  Yup, the fact that no negotiation is required.

Translation, folks: no negotiation = no consent.

“Perreti and Rowan (1983) investigated a sample of 27 men and 24 women, aged 17 to 28, who had practiced sexual contact with animals at least twice a month for a minimum of 2 years…

“… For the majority of men (93%) sexual expressiveness was a factor for engaging in sexual contact with animals over this long period of time.  Sexual fantasies were named by 81%, no need for negotiation by 74%, no human social involvements necessary by 63%, economical reasons by 59%, and emotional involvement by 26% of the men.  The most important factors for the women were emotional involvement (88%), no human social involvements necessary (75%), no negotiation (58%), sexual expressiveness (46%), sexual fantasy (38%), and economical reasons (21%).”  [bold emphasis added] (p. 213)

– Andrea M. Beetz in The International Handbook of Animal Abuse and Cruelty: Theory, Research, and Application, ed. Frank R. Ascione, PhD

“The opinion prevails that any form of sexual contact with animals and especially penetrative acts are per se abusive, since it is not possible – as with children or the mentally impaired – to obtain consent to such an act from the animal (Ascione, 1993; Beirne, 2000).  Beirne (2000) provided a thorough and informative discussion of this question of consent and argued for a definition of any kind of sexual contact with animals as interspecies sexual assault…”

– ibid.; p. 210

“Beirne (2000) states that, independent from the kind of force used and the reactions of the animals, all sexual acts between humans and animals are wrong.  One argument he proposed is the potential for coercion that prevails in almost every situation between humans and animals…  Physical, psychological, economic, or emotional coercion is almost always involved in sexual approaches to animals (Adms, 1995, cited by Beirne, 2000), as in the sexual assault of children or women, and therefore consent cannot be given, and the sexual activity is forced (Beirne 2000).  The decisive criterion… is not the imbalance of power, but rather that one of the involved parties cannot consent or communicate such consent to sexual acts.  Both involved parties must be conscious, fully informed, and positive in their desires in order to be able to give genuine consent [emphasis added].

– ibid.; p. 211

Bottom line – if you fuck animals, or engage in any other form of sexual contact with them, you are engaging in nonconsensual behavior with a creature that is unable to consent.  This is not a kink; it’s sexual abuse of a helpless animal, end of story.  It’s a sickness, just the same as sexual abuse of children.  Your kink is not OK; sorry.  End of story.  It’s no more OK than it’s OK to push yourself nonconsensually on another adult, which behaviour we rightly routinely condemn in the BDSM community.

The section goes on to detail other characteristics of people who engage in sexual abuse of animals.  None of it points to being particularly well-adjusted.  It also delves more deeply into these connections with the known interaction of animal sexual abuse with violence against people and child sexual abuse.

Bestiality is sexual abuse of animals.  People having sexual contact with animals for their own gratification, or using animals sexually to demean and injure others, is animal sexual abuse.

So what’s this got to do with a blog with a heavy focus on people abuse and kink?

A lot, actually.

I found out some information related to this topic a few months ago that has had me extremely worried.

I also really love animals in general – in a healthy way.  I’ve always had pets, who have always been cherished companions, and I take the responsibility to protect these creatures we bring into our lives seriously.  I’ve done animal rescue and other volunteer work in the past, both throughout the Bay Area, California, and nationally, and undoubtedly will again.  I make financial donations to support groups that engage in this work.

And of course, I have a strong, long-standing interest in the topic of abuse in general.

So, the topic has been on my mind for a while, and I finally realized I may as well use my blog to explore it.

One of the things I certainly can do is try to further understanding of this perversion, and the very real damage it does, both to the animals in question – and to the people involved, particularly if the animal is used as a tool to abuse her (usually a woman or child) with.  I can open the door to discussion to a) help people understand the extent of the problem and why it’s so bad, and b) give people who have been victimized this way in some manner a place to vent and share their feelings with other victims, if they so choose.  We aren’t allowed to even discuss what’s wrong with bestiality on Fetlife, so I’m opening up a platform for it here, as another aspect of abuse in general.  The role that bestiality plays in abuse in general and in BDSM – and why it has everything to do with the former and nothing at all to do with the latter – needs to be aired.

Sadly, there is a segment of the population who actually considers this to be a legitimate kink, and some even consider it a valid sexual orientation.  I am not going to go into all of the horrifying twaddle many of these people posit as justification for these horrifyingly skewed views.  I don’t care what their excuses are – bestiality is nonconsensual by definition, because animals lack the capacity to give consent.

It’s the same thing with children and child sexual abuse.  Both animals and children depend on adults to protect them, and having sex with them is one of the most flagrant violations of trust possible.

The fact that sex with animals cannot possibly be consensual lands it firmly in the camp of being abuse, plain and simple.  Sorry, but in these two areas, your kink is just not OK on any level, end of story.

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